I think about God too Jim Murray. - Kevin Pashuk - Canada

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago · 2 min. reading time · ~100 ·

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I think about God too Jim Murray.

This started out as a reply to Jim Murray's post I Think About God. The comment ended up being way too long... so I'll post it in this format.

It’s been said that to have a great conversation one must avoid 3 topics – sex, politics, and religion. With his post he's been able to avoid all 3. He kept religion out of a post about his view of God.

Let me weigh in to this wonderful, respectful conversation with my view.

Let me explain. IMO there is a huge order of magnitude between God (or one’s concept of God) and religion.

There is God the higher power, the unseen force in the universe, the creator. It is what Einstein described (while he didn’t believe in a personal God) as a key element in figuring out the universe.

As Jim described one can see evidence in Nature, relationships, and more of god’s existence if one looks for it.

There are the gods with personality. Some malevolent, some benevolent, but mostly distant, with their followers clamoring for attention, or just trying to appease the gods so they don’t end up an oily blot of smoldering ash. This is what I would call religion – humans trying to fit god into a box to understand him/her.

There are the gods that are simply used to justify behavior – most of it bad. E.g. You believe different than me, I believe I shall hate you, perhaps even kill you with my righteous indignation, or holy bullet.

As Gandhi once declared “I would seriously consider becoming a Christian, if it wasn’t for all the Christians I know” (my paraphrase).

According to one book I read, Gandhi daily read the Beatitudes, the teachings of Jesus known as the Sermon on the Mount.

In personally reading these and the other teachings of Jesus, I find a marked contrast between what he taught, and how many people who call themselves his followers actually live.

There is no room for hate. Jesus said the greatest thing we could do is “Love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength” and the second greatest thing we could do is “Love our neighbour as our self”.

There is no room for self-seeking gain. He told us to share what we had with those less fortunate, whether next door, or in a different land.

There is no room for violence. He told us to follow him in bringing peace into the midst of conflict. He taught that it is never okay to kill in the name of God, but it is okay to die for Him.

He taught that it was not our job to convert people. He said that conversion comes from the inside out. He told us to love them, and model good behavior (see the list above).

Once you strip off all the religious trappings, I personally find that this is a belief I can stand behind.

It lets me have friends that are Christian, Moslem, agnostic, atheist, gay, straight, rich, poor, Canadian, non-Canadian, etc. and be comfortable in my beliefs while I let them be comfortable in theirs around me.

So if you want to pigeon hole me. I am a follower of Jesus and his teachings.

I’m also a fan of Pascal’s wager…

If I live my life like this and at the end it turns out I’m wrong and there is no afterlife, then nothing was lost. In fact the world might even be a bit better because of me.

If I don’t live my life following his teachings believing I’ll just go phfft! Into nothingness when I die, and in the end I’m wrong…

But that’s me.

You may think differently.

And that’s ok.

______________________________________________________

Image: The Creation of Adam, Michelangelo. from Wikipedia

About the Author:

I'm the Chief Information Officer for Appleby College, in Oakville, Ontario Canada, where my team is transforming the delivery of education through innovative application of technology.

I'm convinced that IT leadership needs to dramatically change how IT is delivered rather than being relegated to a costly overhead department.

In addition to transforming IT in my role as CIO, I look for every opportunity to talk about this... writing, speaking and now blogging on BeBee (https://www.bebee.com/@kevin-pashuk) , LinkedIn, ITWorld Canada, or at TurningTechInvisible.com.

I also shoot things... with my camera. Check out my photostream at www.flickr.com/photos/kwpashuk

#Jim Murray #Jesus #Gandhi #god

in beBee Writers

Comments

Kevin Pashuk

5 years ago #39

#58
Thanks for sharing this Bill Stankiewicz, \ud83d\udc1d Brand Ambassador. Sorry I'm tardy in my response. My current work requires a lot of focus and writing, and I don't get the chance to blog as much. I do find the older I get, the less I believe as Truth (with a capital T), but I believe more fervently than ever. Those Truths are encompassed in this post.

Bill Stankiewicz

5 years ago #38

we love @Jim Murray

Bill Stankiewicz

5 years ago #37

Kevin Pashuk, another wonderful buzz. I have shared it with all my students here at the university. Its great meeting people like you here at beBee. best regards, Bill Stankiewicz

Bill Stankiewicz

5 years ago #36

Kevin Pashuk, another wonderful buzz. I have shared it with all my students here at the university. Its great meeting people like you here at beBee. best regards, Bill Stankiewicz

Lisa Gallagher

7 years ago #35

Kevin Pashuk, love the way you approached this topic. I don't care if someone is religious, believes in Aliens or is an Atheist. What matters is how they treat others. (Not sure why I added Aliens lol), just sounded fun for the sake of making a point. As I wrote on Dean's post, I'm agnostic, I question a LOT and I want to believe there is a heaven when we die. I want to believe there is a higher power that created our universe. It's just so hard to wrap my mind around something we've never seen or had proof of. But, I have to because it gives me hope that we have somewhere else waiting for our souls - some would call it our energy after we pass. I make a lot of mistakes but I want to think when I do I learn and grow from them. I hope my mistakes make me a better person because I really do try to be self-aware. We have a beautiful world right at our doorstep to enjoy. Many people to love and care for, that's an honor. Enjoyed your post.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #34

#51
Thanks for sharing that Irene Hackett. You are now firmly entrenched on my list of beBee friends who are passionately curious. You would have to be to read the authors you have mentioned. :)

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #33

#48
Thanks Irene Hackett, that one should live with great values, seek peace, and that God is in our essence. Where we differ is that I have no trouble believing that there is a personal God who wants a relationship through his son Jesus. Many (even on this thread) may call that a fairy tale. I've approached this as one who seeks truth without prejudging what I might find. For me, my research and observations led me to where I am now. I am confident and content in my faith, and I honestly hope you are confident and content in yours. Really. (No sarcasm even hinted at) Books that were influential in my journey were Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, and Orthodoxy, by G.K. Chesterton (who used to publicly debate the renowned atheists of the day including H.G. Wells and Bertrand Russel)

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #32

#46
Thanks Aurorasa Sima. For the sake of debate... Do you know tons of Christians, or Muslims, or Sihks, or Buddists who don't kill? There are many. There are a radical few from all faiths that get the headlines. There are also a lot of people who kill others. Ask my wife who is a parole/probation officer. It's hard to kill in the name of a god when you don't believe in one, which is why you don't hear of shooting in the name of atheism. From my limited perspective, atheism has the potential to become a religion too... This is evidenced by the vitriol against 'simple minded' people who choose to believe in a god by the likes of Mr. Richard Dawkins, or Bill Nye, formerly the 'Science Guy'. In order to have the freedom for each person to follow their faith, you have to give people the freedom to choose not to follow any faith... As I understand it, is a big part of 'free will' theology. (Another misunderstood concept) We all though, have to live in community.... Local, national and internationally. Our faith should enhance our contribution to the world, not destroy it.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #31

#39
Interestingly enough Jim Murray, we are in agreement on that. I'm not a big fan of religion, and as I read the bible, it would appear Jesus wasn't either. There is a lot I know we will agree to disagree with each other, but die defending the right of each other to have those beliefs. If you've done nothing else with your initial post, you've shown that people on beBee can actually have a dialogue about a potentially volatile issue.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #30

#38
Thanks Donna-Luisa Eversley. This post is indeed showing off how people of vastly different beliefs can have an intelligent conversation. Your faith in Jesus is part of who you are, and obviously influences your worldview, and that's a good thing. Thanks for adding your comments.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #29

#35
Thanks . That's the story that highlights the teaching that wealth itself is not bad, but hoarding it without helping others doesn't fit in with what Jesus taught. I did chuckle at your joke however.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #28

#34
Thanks for weighing in Jim Cody. That is indeed an interesting thought to ponder. What would the world look like if there was no one who had faith in a higher being. There are a large number of good things that happen in the world currently because people (of all faiths) are motivated by their faith to help others. I will state that one doesn't have to have a faith background to do good things, but I certainly meet a number of people who do.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #27

#33
There may not be a correct answer for you Franci Eugenia Hoffman, but I certainly want to hold out hope that if I'm genuinely curious, then my curiosity will be rewarded. To me, there is no downside for my current belief system. (see Pascal's wager above). Thanks for commenting.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #26

#32
Thanks for adding to the discussion Rick

Jim Murray

7 years ago #25

The net net for me here is that there is a fundamental difference between being religious and having faith. I have oodles of faith. Religion, not so much.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #24

#22
Thanks for adding to the conversation Andrew Books! It might only be my limited perspective, but it appears that people don't have an issue with Jesus or his teachings... it's his kids they can't stand.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #23

#29
Thank you for weighing in Anees Zaidi and offering another viewpoint from a decidedly non-North American perspective. I'll ponder the question in your comment. Once again, beBee demonstrates its ability to bring International and cultural diversity to a conversation.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #22

#26
Funny you should say that Phil Friedman... In the church I attend, the fellow at the front just said the other day "If the mainstream church considers you too liberal, then you are doing the right thing." Of course there's a boatload of context to go with that line, but you get my drift. I think if Jesus came back today, many of the churches that claim to follow him would not even notice he had returned, and if they did, he would be crucified all over again.

Jim Murray

7 years ago #21

I have nothing to say, I am just sitting here reading this stream and chuckling with my fellow bees. I wrote a short story about the second coming a long time ago. It was called "A Chick For Jesus".

Phil Friedman

7 years ago #20

#6
Kevin Pashuk - reading back on this comment of yours about Christians and Christianity (not to be necessarily identified with one another), I have often wondered if it troubles the Christian Right that Jesus was the original Communist. Just askin'

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #19

#20
Thanks back to you Javier beBee for creating a platform where this type of conversation can actually happen.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #18

#19
Actually Phil Friedman... I like my belief in what the phrase means better... oh wait! Cripes! I'm turning beer into a religious belief. Either way, I'm going to have a beer and toast you.

Javier Cámara-Rica 🐝🇪🇸

7 years ago #17

Great conversation. I believe in you bees!!! LOL

Phil Friedman

7 years ago #16

#17
No Kevin Pashuk, because like the Shadow, they know. Cheers!

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #15

#16
And this is exactly why we are friends Phil Friedman... we can have a dialog about such things without either of us becoming offended. You will notice that one of my beliefs is that it is not my job to convert you to them. Jim Murray gets the credit for the original post, which had all the makings to become incendiary. Amazingly it didn't, which a testimony to the community we are building here at beBee. If anyone gets offended and actually sends me hate mail, I will just have a beer and send you the bill. You seem to be making that offer to quite a few others these days.

Phil Friedman

7 years ago #14

#8
To my mind, the problem, Kevin Pashuk, with trying to build any opinion concerning God upon observation is that the concept of there being only one God, which underpins the Judeo-Christian tradition (of which the Muslim faith under the Prophet Mohamad is an offshoot), is seriously deficient in terms of explaining such observations. Whereas, when it comes to dealing with observation, polytheism is much more adequate from an intellectual and scientific perspective. Of course, the response that will flow in -- including the hate mail -- will point our that belief in God (the One God) is a matter of a "leap of faith" (thank you, Kierkegaard), which please understand I do not dispute. It is just that the leap required by the breadth of the chasm of observation is far beyond any long-jump I can make, or even could make, were I an Olympic gold medalist. That said for what it is worth, I also have to point out that I do not think much of Pascal's Wager, for it is usually not just about believing in God, but in following the tenets and dictates of organized religion, in which the "wager" is raised. And in such contexts, the alternative to being wrong, is being right and having done harm or even just missed chances to do good in this -- the only -- life we will ever have. For the record, if I were to personally choose a religion per se to follow, as opposed to a deep cultural and ethnic affinity, I would likely choose to become a Baha'i, for it is truly a religion of peace and rejects, as does the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) the concept of religious "leaders" or keepers of the truth of God. (Postscript - Please send all hate mail to Kevin Pashuk, for he provoked me into expressing my views on this topic.) Cheers!

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #13

#13
There may never be world peace Brian, but I like to think I can bring some to some we part of the world I inhabit... even if that is in the life of one person. Call me an optimist. :)

Phil Friedman

7 years ago #12

#8
To my mind, the problem, Kevin Pashuk, with trying to build any opinion concerning God upon observation is that the concept of there being only one God, which underpins the Judeo-Christian tradition (of which the Muslim faith under the Prophet Mohamad), is seriously deficient in terms of explaining such observations. Whereas, when it comes to dealing with observation, polytheism is much more adequate from an intellectual and scientific perspective. Of course, the response that will flow in -- including the hate mail -- will point our that belief in God (the One God) is a matter of a "leap of faith" (thank you, Kierkegaard), which please understand I do not dispute. It is just that the leap required by the breadth of the chasm of observation is far beyond any long-jump I can make, or even could make, were I an Olympic gold medalist. That said for what it is worth, I also have to point out that I do not think much of Pascal's Wager, for it is usually not just about believing in God, but in following the tenets and dictates of organized religion, in which the "wager" is raised. And in such contexts, the alternative to being wrong, is being right and having done harm or even just missed chances to do good in this -- the only -- life we will ever have. (Postscript - Please send all hate mail to Kevin Pashuk, for he provoked me into expressing my views on the topic.) Cheers!

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #11

#11
Thanks for sharing that part of your life Dean-san. I know many people like you who have questions about the paradox of a loving God and evil in the world, who feel that the answers provided by the 'church' were not sufficient. Asking questions outside the box is not welcomed in many churches. While this should in no way be misconstrued to be me convincing you to come to my side... my wife and I currently attend a church whose tagline is 'A church for people not into church'. Given that there are over 5,000 people who attend its multiple locations each week, it would appear that there are a number of disillusioned former church people, who still hold out hope that there's a truth behind all the questions. I am always amazed and dismayed when people refuse to allow for questions or various viewpoints, whether that be politics or religion.

Dean Owen

7 years ago #10

#8
As you may know Kevin-san, I went to a school for sons of clergy. I attended church every day for 5 years. I actually loved the teachings and would often debate with my Christian friends. I even decided to get baptised when I was 18. But over the years, it was evidence that I see that suggested the lack of existence of God that led me to atheism (war, famine, poverty, painful diseases in innocent children). But that said, I still quote the Bible even more than I quote Shakespeare!

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #9

#9
Looking forward to it Phillip Hubbell's post... let the chain continue...

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #8

#7
Thanks Dean-san. Scriptures are like social media posts. If you haven't read them, you probably shouldn't comment on them... otherwise you might appear as my good friend Phil Friedman might call a 'dunderhead'. One can however, have an opinion on observed behaviour, which is (in my experience) where many people have trouble with religion based on what they see in the actions of its adherents.

Dean Owen

7 years ago #7

Eloquent as always Kevin-san. Like you, I love the teachings of the Bible, Old and New Testament.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #6

#4
I would say it's less than 20% in the case of Christianity Jim Murray. I can't speak for other faiths but I do have a great deal of background in Christian scripture. Once you distill the teachings of Jesus down and compare it to what the 'church' has become, and values... there is very little correlation. It's no surprised that it was not the prostitutes, tax collectors and great unwashed who wanted Jesus dead, but the religious institutions of his day. I do believe that if Jesus landed on earth again today, that it wouldn't be much different.

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #5

#3
I will say you are honest Pascal Derrien, which is a quality I appreciate. "Religion" as I understand it, has been used as a hammer to enforce a belief system. It has been the power broker, and we all know what power can do to people. In my experience there are those who have a faith based motivation for what they do (Mother Theresa comes to mind), yet nobody has said she was 'shoving her religion down people's throats'... rather they were commending her for living out her beliefs and humankind was better for her being on earth.

Jim Murray

7 years ago #4

Thanks for the sequel, Kevin Pashuk. I think the problem that most athieists have with religion has little to do with the teachings of Jesus or Mohammad or any of the others, but how the religions (and not all of them) have bent these teaching to their wills and created dogma in the form of threats of eternal damnation etc. In other words they became political entities. You can see this conflict being played out beautifully in, of all things this seasons Game or Thrones. Where the church, such as it is, is exerting almost absolute power over the state. I personally believe that those teachings were meant to help us rise above the pettiness of politics and control of power and just live good lives as one species. Sadly, if you apply the 80/20 Differential, the people who have managed to do that are really in the 20.

Pascal Derrien

7 years ago #3

I suppose I don't think about your Gods whatever they are, I am a pure atheist, not very spiritual either and very forthcoming and blunt about it , I am not baptised or raised in any religion and I am happy not to follow any dogma, some religion pillars or foundation are interesting but twisted in their interpretations in a name of.... I am probably more anti clergy when I think about the Spanish inquisition, Paedophile priests, Crusaders or other actions from nut cases from Sects, cults and other Middle East extremists. I know some of you may condescendingly pity me but I am more than agnostic on that one and if I judge by the religion (s) track record it does not read really well in my book. The simple guy in me thinks those gods Talk the talk but rarely Walk the Talk.......

Kevin Pashuk

7 years ago #2

You and I are a great example of two Beezers who can have fundamentally (and in this case the word is correct) different views on something as big as eternity, and still be good friends. Thanks Don Kerr

don kerr

7 years ago #1

Another good perspective to add to the mix Kevin Pashuk. In my world what you describe is fundamental respect for our fellow humans and the earth. If some come to that through the experience of Jesus or Buddha or Allah it matters not so long as the intersection of belief and commitment deliver the result.

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